I am confused.

[preserved_ginger]

I get, to a certain extent, why Doctor/Rose fandom is all over Ten II right now. He’s new, and shiny, and the possibilities are practically endless. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s very much not my ship, for various reasons, but I’m dealing.

So now we have Ten II/Rose which is really popular, and Nine/Rose which is also very popular. Both of these things are fine.

What I’m confused about mainly, and what is making Doctor/Rose fandom hard for me right now, is why nobody seems to be giving Ten (or Ten/Rose, from what I’ve seen lately) much love any more.

Without Ten there would be no Ten II, so why no Ten love?

Comments

[trustme1013.livejournal.com]

I dunno, because if I had to describe how Handy-Spare-Hand!Ten fits into my canon, it would have to be like a pair of shoes that is just that one size too big ... It's been months now, and I'm still resentful that Rose has been exiled again, and while I see the wisdom of this situation and how everyone 'wins' (WHAT ABOUT TEN?! WHAT DOES HE WIN?!) I don't have to like it.

Human is boring. Human is ordinary, and I can only read so many this-is-how-humans-do-it fics, you know?

So, I am with you. I'm not much into writing DW fanfic (only have one under my belt for a fic exchange) but I miss my D/R pre-JE fiction. Sad times.

My somewhat lame attempt to explain

[azriona.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking because anything Ten/Rose is going to fall into two categories: either it's AU, or it's historical (in that the story takes place pre-DD). While there are plenty of AU fics around, there seems to be a sort of block (be it mental or otherwise) in starting an AU fic.

And historical, you're sort of setting the characters up for the heartbreak that is DD, unless you plan on turning it AU anyway.

Neither of which explain the Nine/Rose thing, but that's a whole other story....

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

As far as fic-writing goes, I've always had a much easier time writing in the present or future. In other words, writing in the context of currently airing canon or what will take place after that canon. It's not as natural for me to write something in the past, unless I've got a very specific plot bunny that's popped into my head. I wonder if it's the same for other writers.

And as far as Nine/Rose writing still going strong, I think that for some people Nine/Rose will always outweigh Ten/Rose (or even Ten II/Rose) - that's really more their ship, and so that's what they're writing.

I've seen several people doing a rewatch of DW, and so maybe we'll be seeing some more Ten/Rose fics popping up soon with people's mindsets back in S2.

[aroseby.livejournal.com]

I still love Ten!!! There's so much to do with him post "Journey's End" I need to get back into fic

[usaku.livejournal.com]

I think you hit the nail on the head, really. "New and shiny possibilities." Combined with the idea, as was mentioned already, that writing current of future set stories is less awkward than writing something that's set in the past. I think it's for the same reason it is/was difficult to see all our happy pic spams and shippy moments from S2 after S4 ended: we feel a pang of sadness because when know that happiness doesn't last.. we know what will happen to them.

As for Nine/Rose? I think the Nine/Rose shippers have had a long time to come to terms with the passing of Nine, and can comfortably write him and Rose having endless adventures together (plus, we know that Rose still continues on with a Doctor in some form). And, it's different because Ten/Ten II are the faces of the crisis at hand, the happy moments and the heartbreaking. It's a more tender (for a Doctor/Rose shipper) topic because of what has happened between them.

[jedi_of_urth]

Well, I think a lot of it is the new and shiny factor, the flip side being that we haven't really gotten our heads around what did happen enough to say screw it and write AU fic (well that's a lot of my problem).

It's easier for me (and probably lots of people) to write things that are canon compliant, so season 2 retrospective, season 3 angst, post JE stuff is. Alright so the night TSE aired I started writing some seriously AU stuff that may never see the light of day (as oh so much of my stuff can attest too) and I'll probably get back to that point of disregard for canon, but I'm still dealing with my mixed feeling towards canon which kind of gets stuck in my brain.

The thing about Nine/Rose popularity over Ten(anything)/Rose is that they *have* had time to get to a screw canon frame of mind. And it's far enough back that canon isn't the looming shadow it is in the Ten/Rose world. And there are people for whom it has always been a different, maybe preferred, creature anyway.

[thistwilight.livejournal.com]

ADFGKDKKSFEXACTLY!!!!! I'm seeing no Ten/Rose fic anymore! Why won't anyone write Ten/Rose?!?!?!

[catsfiction.livejournal.com]

JE put Ten/Rose shippers in an impossible bind. We were given what we thought we wanted. If you don't accept Ten II as the "real" Doctor you upset a lot of people who are certain that he is. But if he's the Doctor, then it's kind of a slap in the face to the POTB to stubbornly write Brown Ten/Rose.

At first I thought "Screw Ten II, he isn't the real deal." But as I wrote, I began to care about him. Couldn't help myself. So it's very hard to find an ending that works for everyone.

I'm still trying to figure this one out. And I think another aspect to the problem is that we know there's more of the story yet to come - RTD is deeply involved in the Specials, and there are many uncertainties there.

I'm beginning to feel that the only thing I want to do is write my version of the Christmas Special - using "It's a Wonderful Life" as a template for Ten to find out the error or his ways. But that means either killing off 10.2 or leaving him alone, so still no happy ending.

Damn you, RTD, you clever bastard!

[sciathan-file.livejournal.com]

Journey's End made me want to slap the Doctor (which I shall use for 10.1...and call Ten II Handy, for purposes of this conversation) and also want to figure him out.

Because, I think part of the shininess of it all is that is a bit of a love triangle...with two of the same people for most intents and purposes...and that fascinates me. But also as azriona you're limited to AU or historical now and I don't like AU, personally, although I'm working on historical.

Secondly, taking JE into account the character dynamics become exponentially harder to manipulate as a writer. Handy/Rose can more easily continue on with somewhat familiar character dynamics. Taking into account that the Doctor was a righteous bastard in JE...all those dynamics have to change and I think it is rather difficult, to put it mildly, to write. For me, even in my world where I kill of Handy fairly early on, reconciling Ten/Rose is...hard. Because if you were Rose I think you would have issues with Lonely God Doctor and his constant desire to give up on himself and be a general self righteous git.

And you have to work through the Doctor's massive wealth of psychological issues. I'd love to see a fic where Freud puts him on the couch, some to think of it.

But that's my wordy two cents worth.

[helygen.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no Ten love. I'm still reading Ten/Rose fic; granted there's not as much of it around as there used to be, and most of it is retrospective or AU, but it's still out there. In fact I recently read a re-write of 'Human Nature' (with Rose replacing Martha) that was lovely.

I'd like to see new fic looking at Ten's journey after JE, preferably with him finding some way of not being suicidal, but I suspect we'll have to wait for RTD to come up with that one.

[missperkigoth.livejournal.com]

You know, I think there's a much more important question to ask here.

Why do you care how the thundering herd sways?

Let's face it. Opinions are like a particular sphincter, and no one thinks that theirs stinks. When it comes to fandom, you really shouldn't let what a bunch of internet geeks think of a family-rated sci-fi show mess with your mojo. You should be able to enjoy stories, alternate universes, and all of that as a fun hobby. It's not as thought there are UN-designated councils on the validity of fandom factions.

*hugs* Relax sweetie, it's a Sunday.

That being said, there's a still a huge tide of Ten/Rose out there. It really hasn't gone away at all. Since there's going to be such a delay before any new material, and we'll probably never see Rose again on the show, people are exploring other takes. There really hasn't been a tectonic shift.

[bananasandroses.livejournal.com]

Cheers for the reality check :)

I’m tired, and ill, and grumpy – and have been all day. Quite possibly I shouldn’t be posting in the mood I’m in.

Maybe I’ll feel better about this whole damn thing when my head stops hurting for long enough for me to not need stuff to distract me!

[karenor.livejournal.com]

I agree with someone up there who mentioned canon. That Ten/Rose is either in the past or it's AU or it's TenII/Rose.

I'm currently writing both Ten and Ten II (separate stories). I'm not giving up on ever writing Ten again. But everything I write will be either during S2, or it will be Ten on his own.

Because I'm a writer that tends to defer to canon. I like my fic to fit it.

And since Doctor/Rose is my ship, the place that ship lives is with Ten II in Pete's world. I don't love II because he's new and shiny, I love him because he's the Doctor. And if I want to write about a future for the Doctor and Rose, I'm writing it with Ten II. Doesn't mean I don't love Ten, all lonely in the 'real' world.

It's not in any way disloyal or something to Ten to like Ten II or ship him with Rose. I love Ten, I'll always love Ten. But sorry, I love Ten II just as much. He is the same man. Insofar as how I feel about the character.

[missperkigoth.livejournal.com]

You're most welcome there. When it comes down to it, you've got to step back and look at it. Sure, fandoms are wonderful, and it's great to have a thing in a fandom to focus on. However, with everything else in life, you shouldn't let too much of your energy centre on such things. Especially when your heads hurts.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

The thing is, for every bit as bad as you feel for Ten, and as pasted-on a relationship as you may feel Ten II/Rose is, there are just as many people who seem to be genuinely, seriously pissed off at Ten for behaving as he did towards Rose, and the seeming (to them) coldness and paternalistic decisionmaking on her behalf throws Ten II's obvious desire to be warm and kind and to let her choose for herself into even sharper relief.

Which is not to say it's a viewpoint I agree with (although I like Ten II). But even amongst folks who adore Ten (versus those who've continued to sit shiva for Nine since 2005), feelings do run the gamut.

What I have to say I completely don't get are the people who write the Ten II/Rose fics as if a) his feelings are vastly different from Ten's (versus simply expressed differently), or b) he's literally a human being now (if he were a mostly-human Time Lord-Human Biological Metacrisis, he'd have been dying already and there's no freaking way either Ten or Ten II would've left Rose stranded with him in Pete's World just to watch him die).

If you like to hew to canon, Ten/Rose is now prologue. I know that sounds terribly dismissive, but that's sure to be a contributing factor as well.

If you write Ten/Rose at this point, you either keep approximately to canon and write in the past (humansrsuperior is doing an interesting series right now; mtemplar_fic is about to start posting another long fic), or you are forced to enter the realm of 100% AU.

[starlightmoonla.livejournal.com]

I love Ten/Rose and Ten especially! I really really do!! Though it doesn't seem like it at the moment. I think, for me, a part of it is because TenII/Rose are shiny and new and there are so many possibilities for them right now. It'll be tough, sure it will be, but they'll be happy.

And another part of it is that I'm still upset with Ten, for leaving her in Pete's World without even saying goodbye. It's his whole self-inflicted pain that bugs me and so I run to Ten II/Rose.

But that doesn't mean I don't love Ten and Ten/Rose. I'll happily read anything that either AU from canon (from Doomsday or Journey's End) or something set before DD. :D My ideal situation would have been Ten/Rose but because of the storyline, and the show as a whole, they make it seem... impossible. ^_^" (There goes that word again)

In terms of Nine/Rose. I used to be a fan... but not so much anymore - for a long time now actually. I almost always read/see Ten in all fics. :)

[thehornedgod.livejournal.com]

Meh, original flavour Ten is still awesome. Ten II is... what? Bit more human, bit more Donna, supposedly a bit more Nine? Wholly mortal, and that's not what I signed up for. I saw Doctor/Rose and RTD!Who generally, as if you can separate them, as a sort of fable about the marriage of the divine and the human. But RTD's ultimate verdict, unless the specials are very special indeed, seems to be that god and man cannot be fully reconciled. The god cannot bear to admit that he loves us in more than an abstract sense because it hurts too much. The god cannot even be reconciled with himself but has to cast himself out of heaven, incarnate as the son of a metacrisis. We learn that human kind cannot bear very much reality; when you get too close to the Doctor's perspective and power it means a kind of death. Nine gladly died in Rose's place when she became the TARDIS but Jackie saw how running with the Doctor was already changing her into someone more Doctorish by her symbolic 'death' in Doomsday and we see it in Turn Left. Donna became the Doctor and the person she'd become had to die too. So Rose and her Ten diminish and go into the West to ride on zeppelins forever, while our Ten endures. The story's darkened around him, he looks like he's on the brink of buckling, so fandom chirps 'Don't you think he looks tired?' like it's a clever observation, much as they love to call him out for his hypocrisy about soldiers, despite that explicitly being the point. It's not over; Russell can't leave the Doctor this broken, he has to find enough peace in the specials to pick up a new companion in the following series. I reckon Tennant's going to do at least another couple of years and there'll be a new generation on board by then, so the people sighing and glancing pointedly at their watches can diminish and go into the West and watch Merlin for all I care.

[usaku.livejournal.com]

>>It's not over; Russell can't leave the Doctor this broken, he has to find enough peace in the specials to pick up a new companion in the following series.

And you know what's sad about this? I don't think we'll get to see it. Apparently (I think it was in DWM) the 2008 special picks up after some time has passed, post-JE. It's supposedly upbeat to some degree. So, as I feared, it looks like we'll be kicking off with the Doctor being the Doctor, hunky-dory like nothing happened, with a whopping blackhole where mourning/recovery should be. By all means I hope I'm proven wrong, but I can't help seeing the glass as half-empty.

[thehornedgod.livejournal.com]

I heard this too, but I don't think the Doctor will be reset. Okay, we won't see him in pieces in the immediate aftermath of JE, but I expect it to run more or less like the last couple of Christmas specials. The Runaway Bride was upbeat to some degree but we still see the Doctor mourning Rose. By Voyage of the Damned he was such a mess after the Rose, Martha and Astrid debacles that he didn't even want a companion, Donna only got into the TARDIS by cashing in a prior invitation. Darth Moff has said he's issued orders to Russell as to where he wants the Doctor to be by series five, and I think it's obvious what they are. He needs a viable protagonist for a continuing series, which the Doctor isn't at the moment. I expect an arc leading there through the specials.

[shield-wolf.livejournal.com]

Considering the strange sort of symbolic parallelism that seems to be emerging within already revealed plot details for the special, I would have to agree that the subject of "the Doctor and Rose" has not been dropped completely and will likely be rehashed yet again in a different form.

That said, however, I am one of those fans who wonders if we aren't meant to perceive Ten as still in danger of heading down a very dark path if something drastic doesn't happen to divert him from it. Therefore, I hope that this is indeed where RTD is heading with what remains of his story in 2009.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you asked this question. And pretty much...it's what I figured. For me, it was just to painful too write Rose/Ten because I felt the entire storyline had been screwed over so royally that I no longer recognized either character in those last ten minutes. Also, I had no exciting and new ideas because I had already had such a grand time setting Wild Geese and the proposed sequel in Pete's World with TEN. All of the things people are now seeing Ten II do in their fic...I already did those things with TEN, in my head or in WG. So, I felt short changed all over the square with the ending of JE.

It meant that my take on Rose as smart and loyal and competent was wrong...and all she wanted was to be told she was loved. And my take on Ten was wrong, because he couldn't change and was doomed to just keep repeating his same mistakes over and over again. Or, he just wasn't capable of love...which makes what he does to Rose and River even more horrid. And I have a new guy who for me...isn't nearly as interesting as Ten. Because I've already had such a good time making Ten fit into that world. So while 10.2 would give me loads of fun if he wasn't shoehorned onto Rose...as it stands...there's no story there for me. They live happily ever after...or they are miserable...but he's just a man with a time lord brain and memories. And to me...if someone gave me an exact copy of my husband...but my husband was all alone somewhere...I would never be happy with the new guy.

Rae

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Oh...crap...I went to correct the to and too and I did it wrong way around...sheesh! Nevermind my grammar.